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Tracing and referencing by VengefulSpirits Tracing and referencing by VengefulSpirits
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:iconlightningdraco:
What happens if you only used the pose and not drawing the same creature, like replacing the furred animal with dragons, but only using the pose?
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:iconintoxicatingcolors:
IntoxicatingColors Featured By Owner Nov 21, 2014  Student General Artist
I love this! I despise those who take artwork and copy it or crop the signature out and then try to take as their own.
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:iconzieu:
Zieu Featured By Owner Nov 19, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
good
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:iconicygumball3000:
icygumball3000 Featured By Owner Nov 14, 2014  Student Filmographer

This is a step in the right direction, but I still feel that it misses the mark a bit. Let me explain my case as an illustration and animation student, because plagiarism is hardwired into me as a giant “no-no”.

The difference between tracing and referencing is all in where you place the source material.

If you draw any remotely similar image on top of its source, it’s tracing. It doesn’t matter whether you change the hair, tail, position of the head, etc. Let this sink in: If you’re drawing on top of the image, it’s tracing. And if you claim any part of the drawing to be your own intellectual property, that my dear friends is called plagiarism. It’s as real in art as it is in your writing classes.

Now, if you set your source material off to the side of your drawing surface (digital or traditional), that is referencing. But what’s the big deal, and what’s the difference? Tracing takes little to no skill; you don’t need to think when you trace. But when you have reference, whether it’s the real world around you for a landscape painting or a photograph of one, your brain is working, and it’s working hard. As my professors have drilled into me, drawing is the skill of taking the three-dimensional universe and rendering it in two dimensions. You need to think about how everything relates to the scene in three-dimensional space, compose it, and then transfer it onto a flat surface. Even if you’ll try to copy exactly what your source material is, you’ll be making spacial calculations, you’ll be actively using your eyes and your brain to approximate the image. Do not misinterpret this: if your source material was created by someone else and you attempt to copy it exactly, you still must give credit, because the composition is not your intellectual property.

Referencing is how you learn how to draw. But what is tracing good for? Tracing is a perfectly valid method for honing your technical skills in a certain medium. Like practicing your line work, blending, and any other effects that are created with the flicks of your wrist. It’s also useful for building the hand-eye coordination needed for using any graphics tablet that isn’t a Cintiq. HOWEVER, I strongly urge you not to make public any of these exercises. If you still want to show them to the world, you MUST give credit where credit is due.

All this being said, I still think this deviation is a nice way to start a great wave of change towards respect of intellectual property that the people on this site desperately need.

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:iconcrazianime:
CraziAnime Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Professional General Artist
I agree with you. I am in an Art School myself. And even I have been told what you just typed out. I have been told by people who worked for Marvel, DC, Disney, Dreamworks etc. They ALL say the exact same thing. If professionals are saying it, then I would assume that it is true and agreeable. There is no harm in referencing an image. I do it all the time. To see how a body part would react in a specific angle. A pose is just a pose. If you legit trace over the pose, that is theft. Just referencing is not a huge no-no.
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:iconicygumball3000:
icygumball3000 Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2014  Student Filmographer
:highfive:
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:iconzekkentak:
Zekkentak Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2014  Student General Artist
^
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:iconmiscomunication:
Miscomunication Featured By Owner Nov 14, 2014  Student Traditional Artist
Thank god this is exactly what every person should know
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Edited Nov 12, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
This post in a nutshell:

DON'T DRAW. DON'T LEARN. DON'T EVEN TRY TO IMPROVE AS AN ARTIST. MAKE THE NEXT MONA LISA OR DIE YOU SUCKER. DON'T EVER DARE TO DO ANYTHING BECAUSE SOMEBODY DID SOMETHING LIKE IT ON THE PAST AND YOU ARE AN OVBIOUS THIEF.

Also lol crediting for drawing some character doing an action. Then i will need to find and credit all the artists who ever made a picture of some character looking in any direction. or. all the artists on this world, past and present, for daring to draw.
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:iconicygumball3000:
icygumball3000 Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2014  Student Filmographer
You are so wrong that it blows my mind.
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:iconironicturntables:
ironicturntables Featured By Owner Nov 19, 2014  Student Traditional Artist
S/He ment do not post it.
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
Of course they didn't meant to post it, probably they looked at thousands of other animals for reference along the years, this ought not to be posted according to their criteria.
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:iconironicturntables:
ironicturntables Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Student Traditional Artist
i dont think thats what she meant
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:icontyphloser:
Typhloser Featured By Owner Nov 19, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
The OP never said to never improve. They state at the 'Highly referenced' part that reffing is a great way to learn. It's just, if you're looking at another person's art, you should credit/get permission if your drawing is really really close to it. If you're going to flat-out trace or heavily ref something, you're better off just using it as practice and not post it.

Also, I hope you're making those sanic sprites from scratch or got permission to use them.
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
I go back to the original point i stated. If i looked at photographies of apples and other fruits to make a still life picture, shall i credit all the fruits i looked at and all the thousands of artists and their respective still life pictures, just becasue i decided to paint some apples, oranges and a banana in a bowl? And feel ashamed because this apple looks exactly like other millions of apples around the world and not post it?

They are being mare from scratch sweetie :3 if i were just tracing them over i would have finished the sheet back when i started it on february ;) And dhey are going through a renovation process to ressemble His latest installment's appearance anyway. So don't you worry, contrary to certain other people i am not a contradictory hypocrite.
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:icontyphloser:
Typhloser Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Are the photos stock images? I don't think you usually have to credit stock images (though there are some you actually have to pay for, so...). I'm honestly not sure about inanimate objects like fruit (I guess unless it's in some really weird or unique way. You got me there, I'll admit). However, I do think the artist is only talking about other people's art and tracing/referencing their art. I could be wrong, but since the image doesn't mention inanimate objects/still life stuff, I'm going to assume they were talking about just other people's art.

Alright. I just wanted to make sure since I've been down to the Sonic side of this site and it's just recolour central, lol. It irks me, since I like making sprites (haven't done it in a while, but I like doing it) from scratch myself.
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:iconkoreandruglord:
KoreanDrugLord Featured By Owner Nov 19, 2014  Student Digital Artist
I'm surprised at how off you are in your view of this post xD It's not saying to not draw or learn, just don't fucking steal people's work
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
I go back to the original point i stated. If i looked at photographies of apples and other fruits to make a still life picture, shall i credit all the fruits i looked at and all the thousands of artists and their respective still life pictures, just becasue i decided to paint some apples, oranges and a banana in a bowl? And feel ashamed because this apple looks exactly like other millions of apples around the world and not post it?
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:iconwrensthavaviovus:
WrensthavAviovus Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Student General Artist
A collage is what you just described.  The combination of various materials and mediums to create a NEW piece.  So yes you completely went on a tangent.

What the author o this post is talking about is using ONE piece of previously created artwork and reproducing it.
Or in other words Copying.  Hence why we have COPYRIGHT laws.  The creator did not give you the right to create copies of their work.

So in the end you are using oranges to compare apples.  Even though they are both considered fruit. One is made up of different visible segments that make up the whole compared to another that is a mostly uniform solid.
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:iconblazedriver:
BlazeDriver Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Wut?
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
That post in a nutshell. Tracing is bad, don't post it. High or Light referencing is bad, don't even post it. Don't even learn or try to improve
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:iconaccursedasche:
AccursedAsche Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
The point kinda flew right over your head there.

and you don't NEED to trace at all to improve. I learned only by looking at stuff in real life (maybe at a real photo of something, not something drawn by someone else) and thinking of it in my mind when I'm drawing. Look at yourself in a mirror or a pet. If you need ref, its the best kind. Ya maybe not everyone learns that well that way, but its the best way, for anatomy, perspective, and much more.

but if someone wants to sit there and trace line by line, in someone elses style they worked on doing/developing  themselves, and be an ass saying its 100% theirs. Then whatever.

There is a difference between using something as ref help for a few elements of a drawing, and just coping something pretty much all the way and saying "This is mine". What if someone traced over the Mona Lisa and put eye brows and gave them blonde hair and say "this is mine", do you think thats wrong? or ok? What would the real artist think? They spent so much time on something, to have someone do a half ass shitty trace over, and not giving the original person credit?

or let me put it in this way. Someone takes one of your drawings, traces over it and adds 1-2 things to it, but you can tell its still your drawing by they claim they drew it. Your feelings about that?
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
"I learned only by looking at stuff in real life"

So. Referencing. that thing that should still be pretty much crediting and be ashamed for. Good luck crediting every single thing your eyes have seen.

Seems like my point is still not getting there. but whatever. I am not going to reply to the rest of the point because the issues come from the referncing parts, not the tracing ones. but hey. go ahead.
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:iconblazedriver:
BlazeDriver Featured By Owner Nov 23, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Are...are you fucking stupid?
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:iconaccursedasche:
AccursedAsche Featured By Owner Nov 22, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
31.media.tumblr.com/c61b6c4bfc…

Once again, missed it.

I don't even know how to explain to you at this point. If its drawn by someone, ask before you referance. If its your own leg or your pet, then go for it and post it you don't need to credit it, because its not someone's photo or drawing, you don't need to credit a tree outside if draw it. If you find a picture of a lizard on google (not a drawing, or from a art site like DA) you can either not say anything, or just post in your artist comment, "I used this picture as ref here is the link. " so maybe others can use it and thats all, no searching all over the internet looking for the person that took it. Not like they care, unlike if its an artist or a
artistic photographer on a art website.

They are not saying you can't.

Here.. let me say this.. If its by an artist or someone that is a artistic photographer, ask. Just be like "may I use this as a ref?" Depending on the person they will say yes or no. If they say yes, just credit them in the artist comment, WOW DONE. If no, go find another picture for ref.

If you can't get it and keep making up a different meaning of this, then idk what to tell you.
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:iconblazedriver:
BlazeDriver Featured By Owner Nov 15, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
That's not anywhere on the post lol
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Nov 16, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
"You should still credit the original artist depending on how it looks"

Sure. Here, i am going to credit ALL the artists who have an anthro bunny and all the owners on the planet that also own a bunny which i use for anatomy referencing. Oh and man i should be ashamed. i lookad at the picture of a rabbit. It's the end of the world and i am a terrible artist. I should be dead because how do i dare to even try to learn and get positive feedback for posting artwork online. I need to be chained into an underground dungeon because i am such a disgrace to the artist world because i look at pictures of rabbits for reference
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:iconpedigreedy:
Pedigreedy Featured By Owner Nov 20, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
credit the artist /of the image you used/, not every artist in the world who did something like it.

really simple concept and youre literally making things up. offended art thief alert possibly..
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:iconblazedriver:
BlazeDriver Featured By Owner Nov 16, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Yeah, you're seeing stuff that's not there, making up your own meaning.
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:iconzanagb:
ZanaGB Featured By Owner Nov 17, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
You know that comment about witch hunting in the description still won't imply the general message given is outright wrong. But hey i am seeing thing and of course the context given and the informatin provided within the picture does not make the author's thoughts clear
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:iconblazedriver:
BlazeDriver Featured By Owner Nov 17, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
The aurthors thought are perfectly clearly clear, you're just...
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(1 Reply)
:iconskudde:
Skudde Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014   General Artist
Excellent points! I especially like the comment in the description, as I have sene a couple of fights about someone using a pose from someone else's work even though it cleary hadn't been the case. There is infinite amount of poses to go for, but unavoidably some can look very similiar as people's preferences are similiar.

I trace my own work often the way that I do the sketch on photoshop and then trace it on paper so I can finish it as a traditional work.
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:iconcytric-acid:
Cytric-Acid Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014
i love how people in the comments are getting so up in arms about referencing other artists instead of actual images. i honestly see no problem with it, peoples stylization can help one understand concepts and shapes you have trouble understanding on an actual photo. i know for a fact that referencing my favorite artists have helped me improve my life drawing skills. :P 
in the end, do whatever it takes for you to learn. it's not cheating. hell, even tracing (and by tracing i mean drawing the shapes and forms to help you understand, not blindly drawing over the outline) can be helpful in understanding how an artist constructs things. even the greats in dreamworks suggest that, to draw over an image to understand the construction.

it's also helpful for learning how to stylize. all artists steal from other artists, after all. we take things we like from other artists and incorporate it in our own style. it's the combination of our influences that make our art unique.
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:iconszczurzyslawa:
Szczurzyslawa Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014  Professional General Artist
What about photos? Because when a person use a stock photo, and artist uploaded it for the purpose of making it a reference it's claimed okay when someone trace it making a lineart for example, while posting it-crediting original photo. And yeah I guess it's okay but following this definition it's tracing not referencing and shouldn't be posted. I know it's different but ewh, I'm just nitpicking. 
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:icongrypwolf:
Grypwolf Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
"Also please don't go on a witch hunt claiming a pose, allot of poses will end up similar, this is only to show how to use a reference the right way.  "
This sentence here. This.  Thanks for great work!
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:icondrerika:
Drerika Featured By Owner Oct 24, 2014  Student Traditional Artist
this was seriously needed, it simply usefull for artists who compare their works with other's which seem similiar... XD
Thank you for doing THIS :3
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:iconsilentwhisper115:
Silentwhisper115 Featured By Owner Aug 23, 2014  Student Digital Artist
another asshole doing the whole 'NU MAH ART, WHAT YOUR DOIN IS AGAINST THE RULES!'
crap... just crap.
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:iconruisutheanimewriter:
RuisuTheAnimeWriter Featured By Owner Aug 14, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
What if i use my character (that doesnt look nothing alike) should i still credit when i do reference?
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:icondictatordave:
DictatorDave Featured By Owner Aug 15, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Yea if you reference a pose you should say where you referenced it from, even if the character looks nothing like the pose you referenced.
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:iconruisutheanimewriter:
RuisuTheAnimeWriter Featured By Owner Sep 4, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
so if i do it by eye is bad for not crediting? wow... i have seen so many poses people had made and when then look the same (even thou they dont look at it)... like... what if a POPUFUR (or someone very well knowned) draws a pose and then someone else draws the same pose without seeing the popufur's drawing... will you critize him cuz he drew the same pose that the popufur did and cuz he didnt "credit it".... and also if the artist doesnt take a pic of the reference he used, nobody would know if he used one or not...

i prefer they still my pose (even thou i do tons) than my characters ^^ thank you thats my opinion
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:icondictatordave:
DictatorDave Featured By Owner Sep 4, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
That comment is pretty old so my opinion on that changed but I do see where you're coming from
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:iconruisutheanimewriter:
RuisuTheAnimeWriter Featured By Owner Sep 6, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
cuz it has been time without using DA thou xD
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:iconruisutheanimewriter:
RuisuTheAnimeWriter Featured By Owner Aug 14, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
What if my character doesnt look nothing alike like the pic i would using?
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:iconlilythekitsune:
Lilythekitsune Featured By Owner Nov 9, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
You are still using someone else's art as a reference and they should be credited thusly
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:iconruisutheanimewriter:
RuisuTheAnimeWriter Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Hhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm but its still not bad, im actually saying these cuz people say "hey u cant do it" u can but u need to credit
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:iconlilythekitsune:
Lilythekitsune Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
It's actually better to NOT use an artist's work as reference, because if their anatomy is bad and you don't know any better, you're not learning anything; you're learning the wrong stuff.  Now, say, using a photographer's picture of a cow, say, for reference, it's still polite to be like 'hey mind if I use this for reference?' and if they say yes, link them the drawing. Too many thieves in the art world, not enough honesty and honest artists.
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:iconruisutheanimewriter:
RuisuTheAnimeWriter Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Oh well than that goes to non-honest artists then xD

what if my sis (6 year old btw) uses a sketch of someone elses artist and start looking at it and drawing, do u consider it stealing?
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:iconlilythekitsune:
Lilythekitsune Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014  Professional Digital Artist
As a child, no, unless she uploads it online and stuff in which case...that's strange.  If she saw a My Little Pony picture and started copying it, it's still tracing.  But again, she's a child, and not like she's uploading it.  Tracing stuff for personal collections is still frowned up but people do it.  It's a matter of taking someone else's art and making a copy of it, no matter the case, that's theft.
Mimicking a style, like lots of anime artists do for example is not theft, it's style mimicry.  They look similar but you can tell which one is the original always and those artists don't trace, they have just learned how to do something their idol artist has.

Regardless, tracing or using a reference that an artist has done is theft or copying.  Tracing over a photograph is theft.  Tracing over art is theft.  Even if you use your eye and draw Artist A's cat picture just by looking at it and then at your paper is using it as a reference and again should be credited.
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:iconruisutheanimewriter:
RuisuTheAnimeWriter Featured By Owner Nov 10, 2014  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Okis :3 lol i ask cuz she does it all the time :3
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